Thursday 16th November, 2000
Parliament met at 2.45 p.m. at Parliament House, Kampala
PRAYERS
Parliament met at 2.45 p.m. at Parliament House, Kampala
PRAYERS
(The Deputy Speaker, Mr. Edward Ssekandi, in the Chair)
The House was called to order
MOTION FOR A RESOLUTION OF PARLIAMENT FOR CREATION OF NEW DISTRICTS
THE MINISTER OF LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Mr. Bidandi Ssali): Mr. Speaker, I beg to move a motion for a resolution of Parliament under Article 179 (1)(b) of the Constitution, providing for the creation of new districts.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion is seconded. Please proceed, hon. Minister.
MR. BIDANDI SSALI: Whereas Article 179 of the Constitution empowers Parliament to create new districts; and
Whereas it is considered necessary to create the districts specified hereunder for the effective administration of those areas and bringing services closer to the people, having taken into account the means of communication, the geographical features, the density of the population, the economical viability and the wishes of the people concerned; and
Whereas the creation of the said new districts is supported by the majority of all the Members of Parliament;
Now therefore, be resolved by Parliament:
1. That the following new districts be created in Uganda and their headquarters shall be as indicated herein:
(a) Yumbe District, comprising Aringa County in the present Arua District, having its headquarters at Yumbe.
(b) Sironko District, comprising Budadiri and Bulambuli Counties in the present Mbale District, having its headquarters at Sironko.
(c) Pader District, comprising Agago and Aruu Counties in the present Kitgum District, having its headquarters at Pader.
(d) Wakiso District, comprising Kyadondo and Busiro Counties in the present Mpigi District, having its headquarters at Wakiso.
(e) Kayunga District, comprising Ntenjeru and Bbale Counties in the present Mukono District, having its headquarters at Kayunga.
(f) Mayuge District, comprising Bunya County and Busi Islands in the present Iganga District, having headquarters at Mayuge.
(g) Kyenjojo District, comprising Kyaka and Mwenge Counties in the present Kabarole District, having its headquarters at Kyenjojo.
(h) Kamwenge District, comprising Kitagwenda and Kibale Counties in the present Kabarole District, having its headquarters at Kamwenge.
2. That the effective date for the newly created districts be 1st July 2000.
3. That the headquarters of each district shall be a town council.
I beg to move, Mr. Speaker.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Members, you have heard the motion moved under Article 179. Before you start making your contributions to the motion, I feel it is my duty to make clear the provisions concerning this particular subject of creating districts other than those which were created by the Constitution in 1995.
The Minister referred to Article 179(1), and when we vote for the creation of a new district it will require a majority of Members of Parliament, that is about 141. It is necessary for us to have that number.
I also want to refer you to Article 179(2). It provides as follows:Any measure to alter the boundary of a district or to create a new district shall be supported by a majority of all the Members of Parliament.
You realise that this is one motion but dealing with the creation of about eight or more districts. When you start contributing, you may want to change or add. You are entitled to do so, because this is your motion so it will be treated as such.
At the end of the day, when we pronounce ourselves on this motion, because of Article 179(2), it appears we shall have to vote on each district proposed to be created rather than vote on the motion en masse. I wanted to make this clear.
I was just thinking about how to do it. Shall we do it by division? That may not be convenient, since we are going to vote on each district proposed. So, at the end of the debate, I will ask you, although this is not normal, to put up your hands. I will mention each district proposed, so that you can vote on that particular district. I hope this is clear. If there is any objection to this, please let me know so that I can explain. But that is how I intend to conduct this debate. Hon. Minister, would you like to say something on your motion?
MR. BIDANDI SSALI: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform Members of Parliament that these recommendations to Parliament are the end result of a long process undertaken by Government. In all cases, the request was initiated by the people of those particular areas.
When the Ministry of Local Government receives these requests, a technical study is undertaken. They visit these areas and establish the validity or otherwise of the reasons given for such a request. The technical group within the Ministry then analyses the reports and the Minister writes a Cabinet paper to present to Cabinet with recommendations either supporting or not supporting. After Cabinet has gone through, then the Minister of Local Government comes here with a resolution, which I have done today, regarding the decisions taken by Cabinet.
I will later circulate information on some of the salient features of each district in support of the bases on which Cabinet finally recommended. In the case of Yumbe, for example, there were a number of considerations. Aringa County borders Sudan and includes the sub counties of Kaye, Romogi, Kuru and Dravu. The distance between Yumbe and Arua town is 95 kilometres, while the distance from Yumbe to the boarder with Sudan is 65 kilometres. The furthest point to the boarder point from Arua is 160 kilometres. The county definitely lacks some basic infrastructure, and this is one of the reasons why they felt neglected. They wanted to handle their services themselves. There are two trunk roads, Arua-Yumbe-Moyo and Koboko-Yumbe-Moyo. Below are some of the details regarding social services:
They have 50 primary schools, one secondary school and one teacher training college. They have one hospital, one health centre and 11 lower health units. Aringa County covers almost one third of the present landmass of Arua District.
In the case of Sironko, proposed for Mbale District, it has two counties and they have a population of 270,000 people. The geographical terrain of the area is mountainous and this makes communication difficult under the present set up of Mbale District.
In case of Pader, as you all know Kitgum is a vast district. It has an area of 16,000 square kilometres out of which the proposed area constitutes 50 percent. One of the considerations is the boarder expanse, which has been a problem in as far as the monitoring from the present headquarters is concerned. So, it is felt that when this step is taken, the element of security monitoring and management would be made easier. It has a population of 237,000 people.
Kamwenge and Kyenjojo of Toro:
Kamwenge will comprise of Kitagwenda and Kibale counties, and will have a total population of 244,000. Kyenjojo will also have Mwenge and Kyaka, with a population of 297,000 people.
In the case of Mpigi, Wakiso District will comprise of Busiro and Kyadondo counties, and the remaining part will comprise of Mawokota, Gomba and Butambala. At the moment this is one of the biggest districts, having an area of 6,000 square kilometres with a projected steady population of 1.1 million people. So, the remaining district will comprise of Mawokota, Butambala and Gomba with a population of 427,000 people. And Wakiso District, as I said, will comprise of Busiro and Kyadondo, with a population of 685,000 people.
Because of the largeness of Mukono, Kayunga District will comprise Ntenjeru and Bbaale counties, with a population of 287,000 people. Mayuge District is out of Iganga District, and this is mostly because of the large areas, which are composed of islands. It will have a population of 264,000 people.
Our study has proved that all these districts can stand on their own as far as administration is concerned. And because of this, the impetuous of generating more funds will definitely be enhanced. I beg to move, Mr. Speaker.
MR. PINTO: Mr. Speaker, last time I stood here to question the criteria, and I want it to be on record that this is a sixth time I am asking the Minister of Local Government to give us the basis - (Applause)- on which districts are formed. I want to inform you, as a matter of procedure, that I have failed to obtain from the hon. Minister the criteria (Interruption)- Mr. Speaker, I have no particular objections to these districts. I simply would like to (Interruption)
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: But hon. Pinto, you have heard what the Minister has said. Maybe you could say that the reasons he has given are not convincing, and that is a different matter. But he has given reasons like population, the size of the district, lack of some things and other reasons. Whereas these may not be convincing, it is another thing to say that he has not given criteria for recommending these districts. I think these are the points you are going to raise in your debate.
MR. PINTO: Mr. Speaker, all I want are the guidelines. Does he use area, population, trading centres, so that we have basic benchmarks? Can we have these, Mr. Speaker?
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Okay, let me ask the Minister to elaborate on this so that we can really proceed with business.
MR. BIDANDI SSALI: Mr. Speaker, this is not the first time that Parliament is creating new districts. The grounds for creating Rakai District from Masaka sometime back were different from those for creating Sembabule from Mukono. But the underlying point is Article 179 (4) of the Constitution, which says: Any measure for the alteration of the boundaries of or the creation of districts or administrative units shall be based on the necessity for effective administration and the need to bring services closer to the people and it may take into account the means of communication, geographical features, density of population, economic viability and the wishes of the people concerned.
So, one criterion is the necessity for effective administration and the need to bring services closer to the people. It says it may take into account things like means of communication, and that is another criteria. Additional criteria include geographical features, density of population, economic viability and the wishes of the people concerned.
So, there is one denominator for all of them, and that is bringing services nearer to the people. After that major one, each one of them has one or two of the additional ones. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR.PINTO MANUEL (Kakuuto County, Rakai): Mr. Speaker, under the circumstances, I would like to support the motion for the districts as mentioned by the Minister. But I would like to take cognisance of an amendment by the hon. Member, who is the chairperson of the Local Government Committee. I want to be very brief in my contribution.
Initially I wanted to clear my mind on whether there is criteria that is basic and which we can use from time to time, today and tomorrow. Now that I have got clarification from the Minister that there is no written criteria or benchmark, it is- (Interjections)- Please, we require guidelines. I think hon. Members think that I am opposing their districts, but I have said that I support them. Hon. Members, I support the resolution of the Minister for you to be given these districts. What I require is a guideline.
THE CHAIPERSON, COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SERVICE AND LOCAL GOVERNMENT (Ms. Babihuga Winnie): Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to register the support of the Committee responsible for the affairs of Local Government -(Interruption)
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Member, why dont you come up here because there may be other issues that could come up.
MS. BABIHUGA: Thank you for your guidance, Mr. Speaker. I would like to register the concurrence from the Committee on Public Service and Local Government on matters to resolve issues of granting districts to those areas, which have expressed the wish and have also gone through scrutiny by the Ministry of Local Government, regarding their readiness to assume a new status. On behalf of the Committee, I would like to move a motion to amend the resolution -(Interruption)
MR. NYAI: Mr. Speaker, normally when we have resolutions of this nature, they go to the relevant Sessional Committee, and after hearings, that Committee submits to this House a written report. That has been the practice. If that practice has been foolish, I am not going to rule on that, but that has been the practice for the last four and a half years. I am perfectly baffled as to what is happening now. Can the chairperson of the Committee give us a written report?
MS. BABIHUGA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. I would like to move a motion to amend the resolution of Parliament as tabled by the Minister. The Committee on Public Service and Local Government has kept abreast with the process of scrutinising the different areas that have made requests to have the status of districts.
In that respect, I would like to move an amendment to the resolution, seeking the approval of Parliament to create three additional new districts over and above the eight covered in the resolution of the Minister, to cover the following:
1. Kanungu District, comprising of Kinkizi County in the present Rukungiri District, having its headquarters at Kanungu.
2. Kaberamaido District, comprising of Kaberamaido and Kalaki Counties in the present Soroti Distirct, having its headquarters at Kaberamaido.
3. Nakapiripirit District, comprising of Pian, Upe and Kadam counties in the present Moroto District, having its headquarters at Nakapiripirit.
The three districts of Kanungu, Kaberamaido and Nakapiripirit will take effect on 1st July 2001. I beg to move Sir.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Members, I know there will be many amendments, but again we have to agree from the beginning as to how we are going to proceed with these amendments. You have heard an amendment from the chairperson of the Committee, suggesting three additional districts. I think we shall listen to all the reasons. Rejecting or supporting the amendment will come as a result of your voting. That is how we are going to proceed. Is that clear?
MR. OMARA ATUBO: Mr. Speaker, I also want to move that Lira District be divided to include Kyoga and Dokolo, with headquarters in Kangai. If you split Lira District now, the present Lira District will remain with Otuke, Moroto, Erute and the municipality. The new district, which used to be a sub-district before, will be Dokolo and Kyoga. I beg to move. Thank you.
MR. BIDANDI SSALI: Mr. Speaker, with due respect, I would like to caution Members of Parliament who are moving amendments to this resolution. Before doing that, I think they should seek concurrence or otherwise from the Executive, because an amendment like hon. Omara Atubos, first of all, has not been subject to any study. Cabinet has not considered it, and Lira District has not considered the financial implications.
You would say what about Kanungu, Kaberamaido and Nakapiripirit. I would like to inform Members of Parliament that these three have gone through the same process as the eight went through and Cabinet has finally endorsed these three - (Applause). The three did not come together with the eight because their consideration came later on.
I will stand to support this motion because it only means that after Parliament has taken a decision on these eight, then next week another one in respect of the three comes. But since the three have gone through the same process and through Cabinet, I am prepared to support it now on behalf of Government. Otherwise, we shall be prepared to receive the amendment by hon. Omara Atubo, and any other intended amendments along those lines. We shall definitely subject them to the same process. Thank you very much.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Members, in view of what the Minister has said, I think you should allow the process to be followed and then a resolution will come for those specific issues. However, there could be an amendment, because I have a copy here. You can move to delete, if you think the reasons for creation of a district are not convincing to you. You can do that, but for additions, I think you should allow the process to continue.
MR. TIM LWANGA: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. Having listened very carefully to the criteria that is used to form a district, I beg to move an amendment to create Mengo District, comprising of Lubaga division, with a population of over 200,000 and a budget of well over 14 billion. I beg to move.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Let us hear what the Minister has to say about that proposal. I will give you an opportunity to contribute.
MR. BIDANDI SSALI: Mr. Speaker, this particular proposal or amendment by my colleague, covering Mengo District, has not gone through the same process as I have explained. Therefore, if it is passed by Parliament now, it will have financial implications. And as you know, under our Rules this will be ultra vires to the Constitution. However, this is one of the proposals that can be initiated through the process I have already talked about. Thank you, Mr. Speaker.
MR. ONZIMA: I thank you, Mr. Speaker. I have just been in touch with the hon. Minister for Local Government about a resolution from Arua District local council, to create an extra district in Arua. The new district would consist of Koboko, Terego and Maracha counties. The Arua District local council duly passed this resolution. If passed, this means that Arua will probably benefit like Kabarole, which is also going to get two new districts out of the previous district.
This resolution came before the one on the three districts, which the hon. Winnie Babihuga had just talked about. I would have thought that the Minister of Local Government would have carried out consultations long before they did on these other three proposed districts of Kanungu, Kaberamaido and Nakapiripirit. However, the Minister gave me an explanation that I understood, and I got convinced somehow. But I would like him to say it officially on the Floor of this House so that when I go home and I am asked about the issue of a viable district comprising of those three counties, I will answer with some authority from Parliament. Otherwise, that was person to person consultation with the Minister. So, could he throw some more light on what his Ministry intends to do about the proposed districts? Thank you.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Member, since you are convinced and satisfied with the explanation which the Minister gave you, I think that you should give us the explanation concerning that particular subject at the end when you come to answer. Because, I foresee the Minister being required to answer many other queries, instead of being on the Floor every time a query is raised.
DR. MALLINGA: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. The Minister is well aware of the problems in Pallisa. A delegation came all the way from Pallisa to the Ministers office. Our hope was that this would have been followed up and a decision would have been made to divide the district of Pallisa into two districts. Pallisa county and Butebo county should form a district, and Kibuku and Budaka form another district.
At the moment there is a lot of suffering in Butebo and Pallisa. Services are being denied to the people of those areas. There is unequal distribution of schools, health services and all social services, based on tribal differences. I am not saying that every tribe should be given a district, but the culture of Pallisa and Butebo is different.
Many tribes in those areas have always co-existed. We have co-existed for more than a hundred years without any differences, but there has been an injection of tribalism from Budaka and Kibuku, which has been an embarrassment to the people of the original Pallisa. Therefore, -(Interruption)
MRS.KAFIRE RAINER: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I am very surprised that hon. Malinga is asking for a district to divide Pallisa into two, based on tribes. It is very unfortunate that at the time of getting the district, the same people refused to have the district in Budaka, saying that the services will never reach them. Now the district is in Pallisa itself, and he still claims that services are not reaching them. Is he in order to mislead the House that Pallisa is being treated on tribal basis? Thank you.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Can you substantiate, hon. Mallinga?
DR. MALLINGA: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member you have just been listening to is the embodiment of tribalism in Pallisa - (Laughter). We had elections for LC V chairman and the hon. Member went through Budaka and Kibuku scaring the people and telling them that if an Itesot became LC V chairman, then they would destroy Pallisa. The Iteso of Pallisa and the Bagwere (Interruption)
MRS. WABUDEYA: Mr. Speaker, many of us in this House have visited Pallisa and we know how harmoniously Pallisa District council is operating. Is it in order for the Member to come here and mislead us and entertain us on household conflicts when we have more important things to discuss? Are they in order?
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: It is out of order for Members to bring their domestic conflicts to the House.
DR. MALLINGA: Mr. Speaker, the hon. Member who has just left the Floor said she visited Pallisa (Interjection)
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Well, I have said it is out of order to bring domestic conflicts to the House.
DR. MALLINGA: I have never had any domestic relationship with the two Members concerned, seriously (Laughter)
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, hon. Member, when I said domestic, I was referring to Pallisa domestic issues, not your personal issues.
DR. MALLINGA: Pallisa is part of Uganda and the people of Butebo and Pallisa counties are in Uganda. The way we are being treated by outsiders from our original Pallisa County! There were two counties, Budaka and Pallisa. This tribalism is being injected from outside the original Pallisa County. The pure Pallisa people have never had this problem. In Pallisa County we have Baganda, Basoga, Iteso, Banyole and we have always co-existed.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Members, I would like to advise you. Since the gist of your contribution is for a district to be created out of the current Pallisa District, I suggest that you and other Members concerned get an appointment with the Minister of Local Government and deal with this subject there. Otherwise, it is ended.
MR. ETIANG PAUL ORONO (Tororo County, Tororo): Mr. Speaker, I crave the indulgence of my colleagues in the House so that we treat the matters before us for debate very seriously, a little bit more than a school debate. Let us not inject emotionalism into this. I fully support the Ministers call and invitation at large to all those who would have these similar concerns to go to him. And it is at this point that I would like to pick up my submission.
True, Article 179 appears to emphasise the aspect of service to the people as being the major criteria for seeking a district, but I would like to submit to the Minister that in the experience of Tororo county, the will of the people is now becoming increasingly paramount. My colleague from the district of Tororo will tell you that this feeling is riding very high in Tororo County, which I represent. And I have been extremely patient, because I am a law-abiding individual and I would like to follow the procedure.
I have engaged in the consultations with my constituents since August last year, and that consultation is going on. I would not like us to belittle the will of the people in their governance by being emotional about it. So, I would like, on behalf of Tororo County, to indicate to the House that the people of Tororo County have a very strong will. They are determined to have a district of their own. But we are respectful of the realities as they are, and it has been by very difficult effort for me to stand up and say this, because it is more than I can say. Whether or not you gauge us using economic considerations or population, just look at the will of the people alone; we measure up to it. So, I would like to take the invitation given by the Minister of Local Government to give this notice, because it has not been finalised by my constituents. I am not yet in a position to approach him, but I accept the invitation. Thank you.
MR. WAMBUZI GAGAWALA (Bulamogi County, Kamuli): Thank you, Mr. Speaker, for according me a chance to say a few words on this. I would like to ask the Minister of Local Government whether he has really consulted all the gombololas in this country. Are they comfortable with the current district demarcations, because the first demarcations were really imposed on people? They were not really democratically done, they were just imposed, and we are still actually persisting with the same sort of demarcations, which are untenable. I believe that, if the Minister of Local Government had gone to each gombolola in this country and asked the people which district they want to belong to, those people would have automatically selected their natural assembly point as a district headquarters. If the Minister of Local Government had done this, all this fracas would not have arisen at all (Interruption)
MR. ILUKORI: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker, and I thank the hon. Member for giving way. Whereas all those features that the Minister narrated are necessary, the call of the people is paramount, and the key phrase is services closer to the people. That is why, on behalf of the people of Dodoth County in Kotido District, I am patiently following the procedures and the interest that the people have expressed. So, the key is the interest of the people and bringing services closer to them.
MR. WAMBUZI: Thank you, Mr. Speaker. It is clear, from the response on the Floor, that very many people are not happy with the existing district boundaries. For the people of Bulamogi, it is impossible for us to access Kamuli District because we have to go through Luuka, that is in the constituency of hon. Ndege, where it is impossible to -(Interjections)
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Please allow him to make his contribution.
MR. WAMBUZI: Can I be protected, Mr. Speaker?
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: You are protected. Proceed.
MR. WAMBUZI: We have to go through Jinja in order to get to Kamuli. You come from Kaliiro, go to Iganga, go through Kakira and again to Jinja and go back to Kamuli, because of a poor demarcation of district boundaries. Therefore, at this stage I request the Minister of Local Government to take the cry of the people seriously and ask each gombolola which district they would like to assembly in in Kamuli. I suggest that Bulamogi County together with Busiki County be turned into a district with the headquarters at Kaliiro.
MR. GIRULI DAVID (Budadiri West, Mbale): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. On behalf of the people of Budadiri, I wish to thank the Minister and the President for meeting their commitment. During his referendum campaigns, the President told the people of Budadiri at Mutufu that when he returned to Kampala, he would recommend to Government that the people of Budadiri and Bulambuli get a district.
This request for a district by our people is historical. It did not start yesterday. It did not start now, as some Members are suggesting. Our request has been in the pipeline for a long time, in fact over 20 years. Our population now is probably more than what I see in this document. Mbale District remains one of the only districts that has never been divided since independence
In Mbale District today, especially in Budadiri and Bulambuli, we have a problem, which has been witnessed by Members of Parliament who have gone there on official duty, fundraising and other such private functions. Our roads are the worst in Mbale District and our schools are in a bad state. Health facilities are also not there. In fact, I have documentary evidence from the Ministry of Education to show that in this financial year there is not even a single primary school that is going to benefit from these facilitation grants. From the money Government is giving to complete primary schools in Budadiri West, which includes Buwalasi sub-county, Buyobo sub-county and Buteza sub-county, there is not even one school earmarked to receive these facilitation grants from the Ministry of education. I did go and meet the Minister of State for Primary Education (Interruption)
MRS. BITAMAZIRE: Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. I would like to inform the Members that the process of identifying schools and classes to be built from the facilities grant has already been communicated to you. I think every Member now knows the process.
The hon. Member of Parliament has been to my office, but later on, through the document, I informed the Members of Parliament on how to identify schools and get them listed for construction and given financial help. So, I would like to inform the Member holding the Floor that it would help if he went back to his district and found out how schools are identified and why his whole constituency does not appear. Because the process is very open and transparent, and the distribution should be identified and located according to the decision on the ground.
MR.GIRULI: Mr. Speaker, I have gone back and I have failed, that is why I am asking for a district. If I had succeeded, I would not ask for a district -(Interruption)
MR. ETIANG: Mr. Speaker, I would like to inform the hon. Member holding the Floor, who said that Bugisu has never been divided since independence, that Sebei was part of Bugisu, Bukedi was part of Bugisu, even Kapchorwa (Interjection)- I would like to help my colleague holding the Floor with information. Up to 1946, there was a district called Mbale District, which had essentially about three counties. There were the counties of Bugisu, Bugwere and Budama. That was the Mbale District of 1946.
Between 1946 and 1947, a division of the district, creating the new Bukedi and the new Bugisu, came into place. Now, as my colleague has rightly admitted, the then Bugisu District had just four counties created out of it, of which Sebei was one of them. Meanwhile, Bukedi had Pallisa, Bugwere, Bunyole, Budama, Tororo and Samia-Bugwe, essentially created on tribal lines, because that was the popular wish of the chiefs of the day. And then, of course, many of my colleagues here are old enough to remember that subsequent districts have been curved out, for example Bukedi, which I had talked about. The Bukedi of that time is now three districts, and hopefully it will be four before the end of this decade. Thank you.
MR. GIRULI: Mr. Speaker, the big issue in Mbale now is provision of services. We do not have schools, we do not have roads, we do not have health facilities simply because the money sent to the district does not reach our people. Our people do not taste the decentralisation services. It is on these premises that our people in Mbale request this hon. House to facilitate them and grant them their own district status, so that they can take care of their affairs and really taste the fruits of independence. Thank you very much.
MR. BAMWANGA STEPHEN (Ndorwa West, Kabale): Thank you very much, Mr. Speaker. We have discussed the issue of the districts so much, and we have listened very attentively to the Minister of Local Government. He has told us the criteria that were used to select these proposed districts. We are really satisfied that the criteria he has given are economically, socially and politically acceptable. Therefore, I wish to move that we vote on these districts that have been proposed. I beg to move.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I now put the question to that motion.
(Question put and agreed to)
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: As I said earlier, we are going to vote on each district as proposed.
MR. NYAI: Mr. Speaker, there is a motion for amendment by the chairperson of the Sessional Committee, and the Minister has accepted it. I have a procedural problem. The Constitution does not allow Members of Parliament to incur financial burdens to Government, would it have been difficult if these three districts had been discussed so that they come as a ministerial resolution? Because if that resolution (Interruption)
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Nyai, when the chairperson proposed the motion, another Member also proposed a motion to create another district out of Lira District. The Minister came up and suggested that you follow the Constitution, because if you propose a motion like that and the Executive has not consented, you are proposing a district that could cause further expenses to the Government.
However, in respect of the motion that was proposed by hon. Babihuga, the Minister said that it saved him from coming here again next week, so he adopted the amendment in his motion. So, there is no problem.
MR.NYAI: But, Mr. Speaker, I am only saying that we are setting a precedent where an ordinary Member of Parliament can move an amendment, and once a Minister accepts it, it becomes an expense on Government. That is how we want to proceed.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I have said that the Executive adopted this proposal and made it its proposal. So, what is the problem? I put the question and the question was carried. I am now going to put the question to vote on each proposed districts.
MR. TIM LWANGA: Mr. Speaker, I seek clarification. Are we really going to vote on these districts without any debate on them? The debate that we have actually been having has been a general debate on other issues surrounding formation of districts but not on specific districts.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Member, the Chair cannot know what you want to say. I gave opportunities to Members to contribute to a motion which they knew about. They took this opportunity to air out the grievances about not being given districts, and that is a contribution. Now, at the end of this all, somebody moved a motion, which has been carried. I am now proceeding. There has been a debate, maybe people were not relevant, but there has been a debate. So, what we are going to do is to vote on districts, after all the motion was carried. Now, if you think that a district should not have been created, just vote against it. Just deny that district the required number of 141. Any district that will not get that number will not be created.
MR. MWESIGE: Mr. Speaker, I do not know whether we shall move amendments when it comes to determining district per district. I had circulated my motion to move an amendment on this resolution. I am seeking clarification, Mr. Speaker.
MR. BIDANDI SSALI: Mr. Speaker, in my own view, when you call out Yumbe, for example, and somebody wishes to propose an amendment, I do not think that such a Member would be out of order.
MR.LUKYAMUZI: Thank you very much. Mr. Speaker, on behalf of the people of Lubaga South, I seek this point of clarification. Even after hon. Bamwanga has moved a motion, according to our rules of procedure the Speaker can still use his discretion to resolve whether debate should continue or not. The people I represent, including the people of Buganda, have not had a chance to say what we wanted to say in this august Assembly, regarding the motion. And we would feel insulted if we went without expressing our sentiments.
PROPOSAL TO CREATE YUMBE DISTRICT COMPRISING OF ARINGA COUNTY IN THE PRESENT ARUA DISTRICT HAVING ITS HEADQUARTERS AT YUMBE.
MR. NYAI: Mr. Speaker, whereas I support the creation of Yumbe District out of Yumbe county of Arua District, I would like to move an amendment that the district comprising of the counties of Maracha, Koboko and Terego, with the headquarters at Nyadi, be adopted. And also out of Arua District, Ayivu, Vurra and Madi with the headquarters in Arua. I beg to move.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Member for Ayivu, a few minutes ago you said that you correctly observed that if an individual Member comes and moves for the creation of a district, he would be contravening the provisions of the Constitution. You said he would be imposing a charge on the consolidated fund. And you said that this could not happen, such a motion can only be moved by Government. Now what has happened?
You heard hon. Onzima say that there were proposals from the district of Arua, and he met the Minister about these proposals. He got an explanation from the Minister and he is satisfied with that. Now you will be contravening the Constitution because you are creating a district, and you have said it would impose a charge on the consolidated fund. You cannot bring such a motion because the Constitution will not allow you. That is why hon. Babihuga's proposal was cured by the Executive adopting this motion.
MR. NYAI: You see, Mr. Speaker, I was moving that to debate a very simple point. Since I was seconded and our rules have allowed, you cannot defeat me.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: How can I allow you to debate a motion, which is obviously contrary to the Constitution? You are imposing on the consolidated fund and the Constitution does not allow you to do so. I will not allow you.
MR. DOMBO: Mr. Speaker, I just wish to be clarified. According to what you have just said, and as provided in the Constitution, if we create a new district, which has not been discussed and approved by the Cabinet, it will be an additional charge to the consolidated fund. And according to the interpretation of the law, this will be illegal. I want to find out if, in the deliberations of these other new districts, when you delete one that you do not want, could you propose another one, so that it would replace what had been budgeted for?
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: First of all, hon. Member, you are entitled to delete, because by deletion you do not impose a charge. As for creating another district, I do not know whether the cost of running Yumbe District, for example, would be the same cost for Maracha, Koboko or Ayivu.
MR.ONZIMA: Mr. Speaker, I recall you had advised the Minister to take notes and he would respond, but unfortunately the motion that was moved by the hon. Bamwanga has overtaken that. Could I therefore, request you to allow the Minister to respond, so that it will clear the motion that has been moved by my Brother, the hon. Nyai? I thank you.
DR. NKUUHE: Mr. Speaker, I want the Minister to clarify to me roughly how much tax was collected in what is going to be Yumbe District.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: You see, the explanation that I expect from the Minister is about the resolutions from the Arua District council on the creation of certain districts.
MR.BIDANDI SSALI: Mr. Speaker, in response to some of the points that have been raised, first of all, I want to make one thing clear. In none of these proposed new districts has the Ministry of Local Government or the Minister of Local Government taken the initiative.
Secondly, I would like hon. Members to know that the Minister of Local Government is a conduit in this exercise. Therefore, it should not be taken that Bidandi formed districts or Bidandi refused this or that.
What the hon. Member Onzima wanted to go on record was what he discussed with me as I was coming in. You will recall that when we last created new districts, one of the proposals then was for a district comprising of Yumbe, Maracha and Koboko. And the hon. Member was on record to say that he was very comfortable with being in Arua, and it was one of the reasons why this matter was stayed over and a fresh study was made. Now, as these recommendations regarding Yumbe were made, then this request, which he has pointed out, came up.
Within the corridors of Parliament, a while ago before the Speaker came in, I made it clear to hon. Onzima that this resolution regarding the new district he is talking about was received in the Ministry of Local Government, and that it was subjected to a study. This study has not yet been synthesised to be able to come to Parliament either with a recommendation to say yes or a recommendation to say no. So, I would like the hon. Member to know that the matter was received but that the process has not come to an end.
The other comments made by hon. Members have been taken into account, but please try to follow the process. Hon. Wambuzi was complaining about the accessibility of his gombolola to the present headquarters in Kamuli. The Local Government Act and the Constitution are very clear. If the council of that sub-county resolved that because of certain reasons they would like to belong to this district and not the other, they could resolve and forward that recommendation to their district and to the new district they want to belong to. The process would go on. The district council might resolve on the basis of the arguments brought and they could recommend the same. Now, since it involves change of boundaries of districts, the matter finally comes to the Ministry of Local Government and then to the Cabinet and finally to Parliament.
If it is a parish within a sub-county that needs to move from one sub-county to another, that is again resolved by that parish council and forwarded to the sub-county council. Once the sub-county council resolves, then that is only subject to the approval by the Minister, it does not come to Cabinet. The final authority there is the district council. So, in every case, the Local Government Act, of course on the basis of the constitutional provisions, has got a way to solve the problems that have been raised by the different Members. Thank you.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Now we are going to vote on the proposal for the creation of Yumbe District with headquarters at Yumbe. I think we shall start with one side and go to another.
MR.NYAI: Mr. Speaker, would it not be useful to establish our numbers before we start voting?
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I am not concerned with your numbers, I am only concerned with your numbers so long as quorum is there. I am not saying it must pass, but I am satisfied once 93 are present.
MR.NYAI: I apologise, please.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: I will now put the question and we shall vote starting from one side.
116 Members voted in favour of the motion
2 abstained
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: As I indicated when we started the debate for a motion to create a new district, we require half of all Members of Parliament.
MR.AMAMA MBABAZI: Mr. Speaker, where one is not sure about the tally, what does one do? I got the impression that we are more than 120 in this Chamber now. And when you add up your numbers, they do not add to the numbers here. So, where one is not sure about tallying, how does one go about this to be sure? Thank you.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Members, currently there is a problem in Florida with the elections for the President of America. These are the numbers I got. Do you want me to repeat the exercise?
MR.KARUHANGA: No. Mr. Speaker, we are likely to end up in the same Florida situation. If you now announce the results of the voting, although we are asking for a repeat of voting, and we do not get the figure that is required, namely the magic figure of 141, it would mean that the motion is lost. If the motion were lost, it would be difficult for the same motion to be brought back to be voted on. That is according to our rules.
In the circumstances, therefore, may I propose that we do an in-house examination before we vote, to find out if we have got the necessary forces? And if we do not have the necessary forces, could we technically adjourn and marshal our troops on Tuesday, so that the required numbers are present? Because any attempt to defeat the motion is going to be politically unattainable.
Therefore, I propose that after a technical evaluation of our numbers, I move a motion that we adjourn the proceedings but we can go to some other business. We shall alert all Members to mobilise, so that we are here on Tuesday for voting.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The problem I have is, it does not mean that when a motion is tabled and debated such a motion must always go through. What controls the Chair is that, at the time of making a decision by this House, there must be quorum. The motion may or may not be carried. That is how I have been proceeding. But if you want a repeat or if you think that the counting has not been proper, I can order a repeat so that everybody is aware of what we are doing and then we continue voting on other districts.
MR.NYAI: Mr. Speaker, having witnessed what we have just gone through, I beg to move that we repeat the voting having first established our total number in this House, so that when we tally, there is no accusation of rigging. I beg to move.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The purpose of ringing the bell was to alert Members that we are going to vote.
MR.TIM LWANGA: Mr. Speaker, the magic figure is 141, and if we are less than 140, definitely we are wasting time. We have got to have the numbers to be able to vote.
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Members, even if we had 160 or 180 Members, there is no guarantee that all the 180 Members of Parliament would support the motion. The purpose of ordering a vote is for our records. The motion was tabled, debated, and now we have to decide on it.
MR.BIDANDI SSALI: Mr. Speaker, according to the tentative results of the past exercise, only two were against, and therefore by implication all the others were supporting. You then came up with a number, and I feel that the enumerators might have escaped one or two Members, so I would like to propose, with all due respect, that the voting on this motion be postponed to another day. I beg to move.
MR.KYEMBA: Mr. Speaker, the people of this House have already voted on Yumbe District, and according to the results on the record, we have not had the required number. If we suspend the voting until next time, what will the fate of Yumbe District be?
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: No, before I said whether the motion was carried or not, there was a query and I was suggesting a repetition, therefore, I have not made a pronunciation on the issue. Now let us vote on the proposal to suspend the voting.
(Question put and agreed to)
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: The motion is carried. So we shall do this on Wednesday.
BILLS
COMMITTEE STAGE
THE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS BILL, 2000
Clause 1, agreed to
Clause 2
MR.WANDERA OGALO: Mr. Chairman, I propose that clause 2 be deleted. The justification being that the date of commencement shall be the date on which the Act is gazetted. In any case, the Minister may delay, to the detriment of the stakeholders.
(Question put and agreed to)
Clause 3
MR.WANDERA OGALO: Mr. Chairman, I propose that clause 3 be amended by inserting the following definitions in their appropriate alphabetical order:
Aspirant means a person intending to stand as a candidate during the elections for the office of President.
Constituency means one of the areas into which Uganda is divided, under Article 63 of the Constitution, for purposes of elections.
Deadly weapon includes instruments, metals adopted for shooting, stabbing or cutting, and any instrument which when used for offensive purposes is likely to cause death.
Minister means the Minister for the time being responsible for presidential and parliamentary elections and referenda.
The justification is that the definitions are relevant and they are more specific. I beg to move.
(Question put and agreed to)
Clause 3, as amended, agreed to
Clause 4
MR.WANDERA OGALO: Mr. Chairman, I propose that clause 4 be amended as follows:
In sub-clause (2), substitute the word request appearing in the first line with the word require. This is to make it mandatory for the party to give the required evidence.
In sub-clause (6), delete the expression the Uganda Examinations Board in this Act referred to as appearing in the fourth line. The justification is that UNEB is already defined in the definition section and does not need to be repeated here. I beg to move.
THE CHAIRMAN: But there are several amendments.
MR. WANDERA OGALO: Obliged, Mr. Chairman. In sub-clause (10) delete the word this appearing between the words under and sub-section in the second line. The justification is that it is redundant.
(Question put and agreed to)
Clause 4, as amended, agreed to
Clause 5
MR.WANDERA OGALO: Mr. Chairman, I propose that we insert a new clause (5) after clause (4) to read as follows:
5 (1) An aspirant may consult in preparation for his or her nomination as a presidential candidate within twelve months before the nomination date.
(2) While consulting under subsection (1) the presidential aspirant may
(a) Carry out nation wide consultations without holding public rallies
(b) prepare his or her manifesto and other campaign materials
(c) raise funds for his or her campaign through lawful means.
(3) While consulting, the aspirant shall introduce himself or herself to the Electoral Commission and notify the relevant village council and the police of the area he or she wishes to go to.
The justification is that such activities should be allowed prior to nomination to enable the aspiring candidate to get nationwide exposure to raise funds and generally prepare for the campaigns after nomination. I beg to move.
THE CHAIRMAN: I am not supposed to contribute, but I want to raise an issue. The Constitution, under Article 29, gives various freedoms for people, which include freedom of movement, freedom of speech and others, so long as an individual complies with the law. Why do you want to narrow what is provided by the Constitution by making a statute, which can be amended any time? Supposing this statute is not there, does that mean that this person cannot enjoy what is outlined in the Constitution? I am sorry to raise this question, but I thought we should get some clarification.
MR.MAYANJA NKANGI: Mr. Chairman, I totally share your concern. As far as I am concerned, there is no law that stops anyone from doing any of these things without this amendment. And indeed, in a way, you might say that it is not yours. The only reason for it could be, as some Members expressed concern yesterday, that it would be difficult for some people who want to be presidential candidates to be allowed to hold rallies by the police, and things like that. So, this really will not be going against the Constitution in that case. It will just be there, but without adding much. It will just be there really, but without adding much to the freedoms of the individual, even if each individual happens to be a presidential candidate just there. It will not contradict the Constitution. It will probably give some sort of clout to the person, but not much more.
DR. OKULO EPAK: Mr. Chairman, I am glad that you have pointed out the fact about this constitutional provision. But despite that constitutional provision, the police and other law enforcement agents have been harassing citizens who move around to express their political freedoms and wishes using the penal code. I am aware that the present Constitution says that any law that exists now and is contrary to the provision of this Constitution is null and void. You know about constitutional contradiction, but this is going on.
We already have an existing law, which is consistently used to harass people. That is why I still think that, despite the existence of that constitutional right, and for purposes of elections alone, we need to re-enforce the constitutional provision. Unless the hon. Minister for Constitutional Affairs is prepared to bring to this House an amendment of that provision in the penal code. I actually request that it be done. If it is done, it will make our work very easy, even when we come to the parliamentary and local elections. I thank you.
MR. MAYANJA NKANGI: Mr. Chairman, I understand what the hon. Member is saying. If the issue is that the police are wrongfully or illegally applying the law, then let us go after the police. If the law itself is illegal or it is bad, let us repeal that law. You do not then come and see other people to do their things, possibly legally, and then you say let us put in something else.
THE CHAIRMAN: I think we are talking about peoples weaknesses in enforcing their rights. If we pass this law in this Bill, what will happen to other people who are not presidential candidates? Will they be able to enjoy the rights stated in each line in the Constitution under that Article? They will ask them where the law is for them. They are not presidential candidates. Anyway, let us pass it, because you said it does not do any harm.
MR. MEDI KAGGWA: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. We have repeatedly used the word for avoidance of doubt. Here we are talking about a presidential aspirant. He or she is not any other person. In fact, I am happy that the Minister has just said that it may not add much to it. The more reason I would be satisfied to have it here, and at any rate. Even the people we met expressed great concern about this matter. I am really of the view that we should have it here. After all, we are also going to develop democracy in our country. I thank you.
MS. SARAH NAMUSOKE: Mr. Chairman, I am seeking clarification on amendment 5(3) being brought by the Committee. It says: While consulting, the aspirant shall introduce himself or herself to the Electoral Commission, and notify the relevant village council and the police of the area he or she goes to.
That is what I see presented here, but when the chairman was reading it out, he read the last sentence as police of the area he or she wishes to go to. I seek clarification as to whether what I have on the paper is what is right or what he said verbally?
As far as police is concerned, we have not prevented people from carrying out their constitutional rights to talk to people and go to any part of the country. But when people are going to address rallies, they are required to notify police within 72 hours. Now, when you say the area where he or she goes to, it means that the person gets there and goes to a police station and tells them that he is around so they should come and protect him and his people. But if you say a place where he or she wishes to go to, it means that the notification still remains. I seek clarification.
DR. OKULO EPAK: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I presume that we are going to vote on the entire provision not paragraph by paragraph. I would like clarification as to whether in the view of the Committee and the hon. Minister this provision accommodates a situation where an aspirant may want to call delegates at a national level for consultation. I wonder whether this accommodates them. From the way it is formulated, that kind of requirement is not provided for. And if I am not satisfied, I would wish to move an additional provision that it should be free for them to convene a national delegates conference. I wish to make that kind of provision.
THE CHAIRMAN: But if you look at the proposed 2(a), what he is not allowed are public rallies. I do not know whether it is necessary to mention a delegates conference. Is a delegates conference a public rally?
DR. OKULO EPAK: Mr. Chairman, all the activities which I mentioned would be carried out nation-wide by consultations, without holding public rallies. A delegates conference has never been a public rally, because specific people are invited, considering their various credentials, either by the organisation, or in this case, it could be just a single aspirant. We might want to overcome the problem of nation-wide consultation, which to me implies moving from district to district, and that is why I was seeking clarification. But if this provision accommodates bringing people from districts to the national level for consultation, then I would have no problem. That is why I was seeking clarification.
THE CHAIRMAN: Hon. Member, what would an individual have to do with delegates?
MS. NAMUMBYA SARAH: Mr. Chairman, under clause 3, the definition of an aspirant is a person intending to stand as a candidate during the elections for the Office of the President. And the intended amendment under clause 5 (1), on page 2, says that an aspirant may consult in preparation for his or her nomination as a presidential candidate within 12 months before the nomination date.
As per the first definition, we have an aspirant as somebody who has already gone for the nominations. Because we are saying during elections, and you cannot talk about that when you have not gone for nominations. And when we come to this second bit, we have a definition that may be so hard, because then we are not going to differentiate between somebody who wants to play with the press and bring up his name or her name and someone who is serious. The whole village might come up as aspirants! How would you cater for those?
MR. NSAMBU: Mr. Chairman, we are really making a law which we are eventually going to say yes or no to. I look at the Members we have in the House, and it appears we are under quorum. It is important, at this stage, to have the quorum, because there will be a motion confirming that what has been considered is part of the Bill. So, I would feel a bit insecure if we continued as we are at the moment. You can assist me.
THE CHAIRMAN: First of all, we are not in the House, we are at the Committee Stage, and during this stage we are not making any decision. We shall make a decision on what we have discussed here when the House resumes, and that is when we will require the quorum required for the House to make a decision, and that is 93. But we can carry out business because this is the Committee Stage. We shall later make our report, which report may be rejected, and that is the time a decision will be made.
Maybe what you want to say is that after a long debate, Members are tired. I can accept that. Therefore, we can resume and adjourn, but not because we do not have quorum. If I say I am going to adjourn because we do not have quorum, I will be creating a precedent. I am clearly aware of what is going on. The House is not sitting, but it is the Committee that is sitting. We resume.
MOTION FOR THE HOUSE TO RESUME
THE MINISTER OF JUSTICE AND CONSTITUTIONAL AFFAIRS (Mr. Mayanja Nkangi): I beg to move that the House do resume and the Committee report thereto.
(Question put and agreed to)
(The House resumed, the Deputy Speaker presiding)
THE DEPUTY SPEAKER: Hon. Members, in view of the fact that that Members are a bit tired, I adjourn the House until Tuesday, 2.00 p.m.
(The House rose at 4.47 p.m. and adjourned until Tuesday, 21st November, 2000, at 2.00p.m.)
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